Discussion about the original...

Anything related or not related to the project.
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Trilarion
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Discussion about the original...

Post by Trilarion »

So what did you like most, what least?

What must stay in a remake? What must be changed?

What other nice concept/feature would you like to have (maybe from other strategy games like civilization)? What can easily go away?

This is important for making a fun remake. They better we know what people want to better the game can be designed and the more attractive it will be in the end. :)
Haxaco
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Re: Discussion about the original...

Post by Haxaco »

I've played my first game of Imperialism in overfour years, thanks to this project :D here's some stuff I like from other games and/or things tht lack in the original game.

- a concept of culture. It shouldn't be as complex as culture is in the game Victoria by Paradox. For it remain simple Each province has only one dominant culture. If a province isn't of your culture, it has revolt risk. Minor nation can be of the same culture group as a great power. Compare with fractured Germand and Italy in the 1800s. Same culture minors are more inclined to join your empire either by diplomacy or show of force (defending them from other GP's or threathening them?!). Lets say every GP is ita own culture and there's a very small chance one or two GP get one or two minor neighbours with the same culture.

- revolt risk. When you conquer provinces, you'll experience revolt risk in the conquered procinces. Revolt risk lowers productivity in the province, so instead of two coal from level I mine, you'll get only one or half coal (to give an example). Perhaps developments (railroads, mines, etc) have a small chance to be destroyed (sabotage) each turn. Extra regiments in the province capitol lowers revolt risk. Revolt risk disappears after time. Can flare upagain by random event.

- random events. To provide flavour to your games. Both positive and negative events. Good/bad harvest, harsh winter, floods, earthquakes, mining accidents, economic booms, wave of nationalism, etc etc

- a system of "cores" a la Europa Universalis. In Imperialism all provinces are equal. When I take provinces of Kem, they don't really care, come groveling for peace and ignore me for the rest of the game. The AI should " know" which provinces are rightfully "his own". It provides focal point for war also. Compare with Alsace Lorraine in real life. Both Prussia/Germany and France saw it as core province and Was source of tension and agression. Kem knows I control some of his provinces, they should want them back and plan their military buildup and diplomacy accordingly. Demand provinces back? Buy them back? Or take them by force? With help from allies who recognize their claim perhaps? I always hated how I would retake homelands of an ally that where conquered by a third power, without being able to give them back in a normal way.

- being able to send troops to your allies provinces and fight in their provinces. I'm not talkin minor nations here that you're defending, but Great Power allies you're defending. Lamer option: sending your troops as expeditionary forces (on loan).

- autofill railcars and/or deploy workers when possible/available

- auto upgrade all military units to better model, as much units as your stockpile allows

- show in user interface the conditions you need to meet to grow villages to towns with own industry. Options to support/encourage local industry?

- I kinda missed a jungle tile in Imperialism. Hardwood to me are the forests of sweden or USA, not the jungles of Africa or Asia. But maybe that's me!

- random resources: resources can appear or disappear. For example, you've mined all coal, it's all gone, mines close and resource disappears from that tile. Or new technology blahblah enables to mine previously unavialable deposits; coal/iron/gold/oil appears on a tile.

- destroying previously build improvements (railroads, stations) if you've build them in the wrong place.

- autobuild railtrack to [selected waypoint on map] or [city]

- build rails to minor nations, neighbours, GP's so you can trade via rail instead of by merchant marine

- population number. A nation of 10 million can only support X number of workers, soldiers etc. But if their workers are more highly trained their productivity.economy could rival or be better than a nation of 40-50 million (think Belgium vs. Russia in the 1800s.) With a large population, you could afford some bloody wars of attrition better than smaller nations.

- prestige stuff such as building Panama or Suez canal. Expeditions to South Pole, North Pole, Himalayas, adventurers "discovering/exploring dark Africa". Ofcourse translated into our random Imperialism game world! Could be random events though.

- I'll think of more later :D
Haxaco
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Re: Discussion about the original...

Post by Haxaco »

Last thing what annoyed the hell out of me in the original game: peace is all or norting. I believe you stated this in your design document as well. Peace options should be broader, atleast:

- peace with warring parties going to prewar borders (noone gains or loses land)
- demanding or offering money/resources to end the war (transfer of provinces not included, it could be a seperate thing next to transfer of provinces)
- offering/demanding monopolies of goods. In Imperialism an investor can buy certain tiles from minor nations to be developed. With this peace option you give or demand certain good tiles. You (or the AI) can buy back the tile with enough money in due time and if the other party accepts.
- same as above but with time limit. You gain a reaource tile for x years (1 to 5 years?)
- restrict army/ navy size to X percent of current size.
- demanding/offering discount on trade. In Imperialism tou could give other nations a discount to improve trade and thus relations. With this you can demand a discount when trading with them (never 100% though)

Now another idea all together:

- minors rising to great power status (Japan and Italy as two examples in our own timeline) or Great Powers becoming minor (Ottoman Empire, before Imperialism timeline nations such as Spain, The Netherlands)
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Trilarion
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Re: Discussion about the original...

Post by Trilarion »

Wow!Thanks Haxaco for all your input. Excellent start for a discussion. :)

Right now I am in a hurry preparing for a journey, but in about two weeks I will be able to think more careful about it. I like many of the ideas and want them be incorporated in the remake if possible.
Haxaco
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Re: Discussion about the original...

Post by Haxaco »

Hi Trilarion, nice to hear that you like my ideas! Would love to discuss them and others with you... And I do hope more Imperialism fans will join us in this discussion!

No point in talking more since you're away. I'll be going on a journey of my own and will check back in about four weeks from now :mrgreen:
Haxaco
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Re: Discussion about the original...

Post by Haxaco »

Errrr I couldn't resist to leave some food for thought :mrgreen: I know some of this is already in the specification document, but here goes:

- council of government sucks! I think game concepts should be loosely based on real life. Your empire wants a place in the sun? Measure its prestige by counting dreadboughts, your economic output and and size of military (the more modern your troops/weapons are, the higher your score)
- not all minors should become colonies of greater powers (or be conquered for that matter). Quite a number Should remain independent.
- in the original game the weakest Great Power would get jumpd on eventually by all other GP's. This shouldn't happen! When a weak GP (Ottomans) was attacked (by Russia) in our timeline, other GP's (UK, France and several minors too!) came to defend the weaker one. To preserve balance of power.
- most GP seem to ally themselves with most other GP's. It is not uncommon to see that every AI Great Power has three or four GP allies. It would be waaaaay cooler if power blocks would form. Compare to our own web of alliances that lead to world war 1 which had pretty clear power blocks.
- statistics are good! Instead of showing bars in the status report, perhaps show "real" numbers. Also include minors! it owould be cool to see how many steel or whatever you produce each year (approximation) in relation tovthe rest of the world.
- minors should build infrastructure, industries, armies and navies too!
- not every battle should become verdun part two with millions upon millions of artillery pieces behind extremely fortified walls.
- university upgrade shouldn't be free. I can't remember if it costs money to upgrade your shipyard to be able to build ironclads ?
- Introduce consumer goods as a produced goods. How it is now, is that your workforce needs food, or they'll get sick. How about they also need consumer goods or they'll become unhappy? More specialized workers need more consumer goods. I haven' got a clue what resources should be the input! If we want (do we?) to simulate population unhappiness, perhaps we should stick with a tax mechanism. Higher taxes = higher unhappiness = higher revolt risk = lower productivity and perhaps.
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Trilarion
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Re: Discussion about the original...

Post by Trilarion »

I am back from my vaccation and I think I got all the major elements like trade, economy and everything now wired together. At least in a way that I think it could work like this. Thanks for your input, I will answer in detail later. Just about the thing with the consumer goods: I had exactly the same idea during vaccation. 8-)

Currently I try to compile all in one big file (easier for editing and keeping track of everything). I guess I can finish it until the end of the month. Then I can start thinking about the implementation.

And then also I start promoting this project. I too hope many others will come here. Only up to now I almost did not make any promotion - so no wonder this project is unknown. And there wasn't much to see anyway. But I am getting closer. :)
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Trilarion
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Re: Discussion about the original...

Post by Trilarion »

Hi,

so I continued working on the official specifications. It's far from complete and everything can always be changed later if there are enough people voting for it, but for now there is a draft available as pdf download or directly the newest version via svn. As I said it's more of a collection of ideas and is not concrete enough to define a game, just mere possibilities.

Currently I do three things at the same time:
  • Improving the websites' design and promoting the project, hoping to attract people.
  • Reading through other attempts of Imperialism remakes or suggestion lists to record good ideas.
  • Working on completing a coherent design draft in the Official Specifications that will be the seed for all later development here.
I also included the ideas of Haxaco from this thread. As promised some thoughts on them.
  • Concept of Culture: I like it but would implement it a different way. I want a cultural victory as another victory conditions, where you basically play more peacefully and concentrate on defending against others while your culture grows. However I tend against revolutions in provinces - it makes things complicated. So I just want to produce culture as a side effect.
  • Revolt risk: I would currently rather not implement it, since I thought that keeping your industry growing, your military strong and your diplomacy up to date is already enough complexity. However it is added to the internal suggestion list.
  • Random events: Added to internal suggestion list.
  • Core provines: Added to suggestion list. It would add alot of complexity. Just saying that all your currently own provinces are cores is easier for the moment.
  • Lending troops: Added to suggestion list. Has also disadvantages like teleportation necessary if suddenly in war with your ally. Also tactical battles would then consists of troops of more than two parties... Maybe just selling of troops?
  • Autofill railcar, autoupdate troops and Jungle tile: Yes and Yes and Yes, added to specifications
  • Random appearing resources: I am not really for it. Makes things complicated but is not core of the game.
  • ... all the other stuff, see the current DesignSpecifications
I hope you see that every input here will be used. :)
Haxaco
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Re: Discussion about the original...

Post by Haxaco »

Hey there! Finally back after a big vacation and some family stuff I had to attend to.

Nice to see some progress has been made. i concur a cultural/diplomatic victory of some kind has to be implemented. Now everyone goes on a conquering spree, which isn't enteirly realistic. Acttually the only thing I really REALLY dislike about the wars is when all Great Powers gang up on the weakest Great Power. minor powers are there to be conquered, colonized or be vassalized. Great Powers should maintain a balance of power. When did a Great Power in our world annex another? Not until World War 2 (France sort of), way out of the game's timeframe. And even that was temporary anyway...

Maybe we should move towards seperate threads soon, each thread dealing with specific game concepts? So we csn go nto more detail/discussion?
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Trilarion
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Re: Discussion about the original...

Post by Trilarion »

Hi, also me I am just back from a prolonged weekend with the family.

In the last time I was mostly improving the website. One might have seen the nice links that appear on top of all the related websites:
http://remake.twelvepm.de/
http://remake.twelvepm.de/forum/

Googlecode is now just a download/soure repository/bug tracking provider but not integral part of the project web sites.

I fully agree with the notion that at least two victory conditions (conquer and diplomatic) must be present. I also have a third (cultural) but for the sake of simplicity I put it on the "Features for Later Versions" list again. Basically the difference between conquer and diplomatic victory should be that the later rewards peaceful play. So going for one basically should exclude the other. You have to decide. For the right way to implement I am still unsure. A regular governor council is still my favorite.

Separate threads for each topic also came to my mind. Expect them in the next days.
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